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I’ve always had a love-hate relationship with thieves. On the one hand, they’re so damned cool, on the other hand, the skills…I’ve seen lots of different variations on how to handle thief skills. The one I like the least is the percentage-based found in OD&D, AD&D and the various clones. It seems so clunky, and has the base chance of most skills abysmally low (10% base chance of hiding in shadows? Might as well fall on your sword…). Delving Deeper assigns the same perfectly reasonable base chance to all thief skills, but they don’t ever increase with the thief level. AS&SH uses a d12 range for each skill, which I like better, but it still suffers from the AD&D problem of having a poor chance of success at low levels. With this in mind, I thought that maybe it would be better to limit the number of skills at first level, but allow a better chance of success with each. Then the player can choose what additional skills they want at each subsequent level. This has the advantage of allowing players to mold their characters as they see fit, while still having a reasonable chance that they can actually succeed at their chosen skills. What’s more, at each level the player can choose to add a bonus to a skill of their choice. The result is the rogue (I klnow, I know, but how many cool names are there for a thief?), which I wrote for Swords & Wizardry Whitebox, although it could be easily be ported to other old-school systems.
Edit to add: Peter Fröhlich had this very idea last year.
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The Rogue – A Thief Variant for Swords & Wizardry Whitebox
The rogue is an urban thief who specializes in a mix of skills of their own choosing. Rogues use cleric attack tables, and are limited to daggers, short swords, slings and bows as weapons. They can wear leather armor but may not use a shield. Humans and Halflings can be rogues, both with unlimited advancement. Rogues get no XP bonuses for high ability scores, and must be neutral or chaotic in alignment.
Rogue Advancement
The following is the list of skills available to rogues. At first level, rogues get their choice of 1d3 skills, then gain one additional skill with each level. The base chance of success with each skill is any roll of 6 or lower on 2d6. Where an ability appears in parentheses after the skill name, that means any bonus the rogue possesses due to the named ability score applies to the skill success. If more than one ability is listed (as in STR+DEX), simply add bonuses for each listed ability. At each successive level, the rogue adds one skill of their choice, and also adds the given bonuses from the above table to any existing skill or skills of their choice (but not to the skill just chosen).
- Backstab (STR)
- Climb walls (DEX)
- Defensive fighting (STR+DEX)
- Disarming (STR+DEX)
- Find, remove or set traps (DEX)
- Find secret doors (WIS)
- Hide in shadows (DEX)
- Move silently (DEX)
- Pick locks (DEX)
- Poison admixtures (INT)
- Read secret writing & scrolls (INT)
- Sleight of hand, pick pockets (DEX)
- The art of falling (DEX)
- Tracking (WIS)
For example, Rufus the 1st level rogue gets a 2 on a 1d3 roll and so chooses two skills – backstab and pick locks. His base chance of success is 2-6 in 2d6 with both. Assuming he has a 15 DEX, which gives him a +1 bonus, his chance of success at picking locks rises to 2-7 in 2d6. At second level, Rufus chooses to add hiding in shadows, and further chooses to add his available +2 bonus to the backstab skill, giving him a 2-8 in 2d6 chance of success. Note that Rufus could also have chosen to split the available +2 bonus between backstab and picking locks. In no case may any chance of success rise to higher than 11 in 2d6.
Backstab: If a rogue is able to maneuver behind an opponent, he can opt to backstab with a dagger. A normal to-hit roll is made at +4, and if it is successful, the rogue makes a skill check for double damage. Failure of the skill check means normal damage is done. At 4th level, this rises to triple damage, and at 8th level quadruple damage. Magical bonuses are added before the damage factor is calculated. Note that victims must have a back in order to be backstabbed, so creatures like slimes or oozes are not affected by backstabs.
Climb Walls: The rogue can climb sheer surfaces that would normally be unclimbable by others. Assume any failure occurs at halfway up the surface being climbed, and results in a fall. Falling damage is normally 1d6 per 10 feet fallen (but see The Art of Falling, below).
Defensive Fighting: This allows the rogue to parry an attack so that his opponents get a to-hit penalty of -1 plus any DEX or STR bonuses. This gives a range of -1 to -3. This penalty is in effect in a given combat round as long as the rogue forfeits their attack that round. However, a successful skill check allows the rogue to also attack normally that round.
Disarming: The rogue is adept at causing opponents to drop any one held weapon on a successful skill check roll. The rogue must have initiative to attempt to disarm his opponent, and cannot attack in the same round he chooses to disarm. A failure means his opponent can attack normally.
Find, Remove or Set Traps: With appropriate tools, rogues can try to detect and then deactivate traps. Note these are separate skill checks, and failure to deactivate a trap once detected means it has been sprung. Once a trap is disarmed, a rogue can attempt to re-set the trap with a third skill roll.
Find Secret Doors: Rogues will notice secret, hidden or otherwise concealed doors with a successful skill check. This is in addition to any normal check for finding secret doors, which is 1-2 in d6 for humans. If that initial check fails, the rogue would then gain an additional skilled attempt at his base 2-6 in 2d6.
Hide in Shadows: A Rogue can hide unseen by using shadows or other concealment to his advantage. He can can then move at half-normal movement rate, as long as there are shadows present to hide in. While moving in such a fashion, the rogue must also check his move silently skill, or risk alerting others to his presence. As an example, our 2nd level rogue Rufus is in a brightly-lit castle hallway with guards posted at the far end. He cannot use his hide in shadows skill to avoid being seen by the guards, as there are no shadows or other forms of concealment available. If, however, the hallway is lined with large tapestries and statues, he could attempt to hide in one place. If he wanted to move down the hallway without being detected, he would have to make two skill checks, one for hiding in shadows, and one for moving silently. Note that a failure of this skill may not be known to the rogue – he may think he is hiding, when in fact he is visible.
Move Silently: A rogue can use this skill to move at half his normal move rate without making any discernible noise. Similar to hiding in shadows, failure of this skill is not always known – he may think he is moving without sound, when in fact he is heard by others.
Pick Locks: With appropriate tools, a rogue can attempt to pick any non-magical lock mechanism.
Poison Admixtures: Rogues with this skill are adept at mixing poisons with various effects which can be mixed into drink as a liquid or spread as a sticky, fast-drying form on weapon blades. At levels 1-4, rogues can mix poisons that cause drowsiness or confusion. At levels 5-8, rogues can additionally mix sleep or sickness poisons, and at levels 9 and above, rogues can mix poisons that kill. Any poison takes effect within 1d3 turns after being ingested (liquid form), or 1d3 rounds after being introduced to the bloodstream via a weapon wound (which implies a successful attack roll). The skill check indicates potency – a failure indicates the poison has the next lower-level of effect on the poison table, as if the victim made a saving throw automatically – although they are still entitled to an actual save in any case. For 1st-4th level rogues, failure means the poison has no effect, but they will not know that until they try to use it. Poisons spread on blades survive but one successful attack, whether they have any effect or not.
As an example, Rufus is now 4th level and chooses the poison admixture skill. He gathers the required ingredients from a local apothecary at a cost of 150GP, and spreads the poison so made on his dagger blade. The referee makes a skill check in secret, which is 9 on 2d6. Rufus’ poison is completely ineffective, but he does not know it. At 5th level, Rufus can attempt to make a sickness poison, but failure of his skill check means it has only the confusion effect when it is actually delivered to the victim, who, if he makes his saving throw, would thus not feel any effect.
Read Secret Writing & Scrolls: Success with this skill allows the rogue to decipher and infer the meaning of any non-magical writing such as that found on treasure maps, in secret correspondence, or in other coded messages. At 8th level and above, rogues can read magic-user scrolls, but a roll of 12 means the spell is reversed (or fails if the effect cannot be logically reversed).
Sleight of hand, pick pockets: Rogues with this skill are adept at stealing or secreting small objects about a victim’s person. Failure of the skill means the intended target is aware that the rogue is trying to steal or place an item from or on their person.
The Art of Falling: Rogues who study the art of falling can survive falls from up to 10 feet per level with no damage on a successful skill check. A failure of this check means the rogue only suffers half damage.
Tracking: The tracking skill gives the ability for the rogue to track targets in any environment, given a successful skill check. The referee should assign bonuses or penalties to the skill roll based on the age of the track, familiarity of the environment, light conditions, and the prevailing weather.
Everybody has to house-rule the thief at least once! http://nilisnotnull.blogspot.com/2013/05/thieves-evolved.html
I suspected this had been done before :). You even mention poison, backstab, tracking and reading scrolls as possible skills in the notes section of your PDF! Thanks for pointing that out (I updated the post with your link so it’s a bit more prominent).
Yoinked.
My major problem with thiefly classes has always been exactly as you say:
At low levels, why bother? At high levels, why roll?
Oh, and for good names, since theft is such a major part of human existence, of course the English language has a billion and one words for people who engage in it (look up synonyms for ‘the state of inebriation’ some time…):
I arrowed the really good ones.
blackguard
con artist
cozener <—
crook <—
charlatan
criminal
defrauder
filcher
hooligan
knave <—
lowlife
miscreant
ne'er-do-well
outlaw
pilferer
purloiner <—
racketeer
rascal
rapscallion
reprobate
robber <—
scalawag
scapegrace <—
scamp
scoundrel
shyster <—
swindler
trickster
Worse are the adventures with plot points that hinge on a successful skill roll, this pretty much forces the DM to fudge the roll just to advance the action. I’ve seen this in solo adventures for low-level thieves. “Thieves can get past the 12 guards with successful move silently/hide in shadows skill checks…”. I exaggerate, but you get the idea.
Names – nice list, I like Knave. I thought of purloiner – but it was just snagged by an AS&SH thief sub-class in the last AFS ‘zine. Cozenor is obscure enough to probably have not been used. Thanks for the comment!
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Hey Doug, I really like this version of the rogue. I just received my copy today of White Box Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game. I’m really looking forward to playing and honestly I like the thief version that’s laid out in the book. I really dig the one thievery check for all skills and the progression works quite well. But if one still felt too gimped early on you try Delving Deeper’s version for WB where it would look something like this:
Levels 1-4 Thievery: 1-3
Levels 5-8 Thievery: 1-4
Levels 9-10 Thievery: 1-5
What do you think?
Hi Charles, that scale seems like a nice compromise, I use something almost identical now in my OD&D games, although no one has yet to get a thief past 3rd level :).
Well if you ever need another player let me know. Currently it’s been my wife and I playing some Basic Fantasy. But I’ve always been intrigued to do some OD&D. So I just received the WBFMAG and I also ordered some Delson’s Dives material as well as the Omnibus and am going to play through the 3 adventures in that. But I really love the simplicity of White Box and I love that level 10 is the highest you can go. I think that’s really the issue with a lot of these other games is the level cap being 20 or more. Anyways it should be fun.
Will do! I also prefer the 1-10 range, at 1-20 the abilities and spell progressions have to be smoothed out more than I like.
Hey Doug, I mentioned this before about using the saving throw mechanic for thief skills. Tell me what you think about this version of it for S&W Complete. The idea comes from Akrasia’s version of the thief.
All thieves receive a +3 bonus when using any thief skill.
Assassins receive a +1 bonus when using any thief skill.
Dwarf Thieves receive a +4 bonus to delicate tasks
Elf Thieves receive a +4 to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently
Halflng Thieves receive a +4 to Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, and Open Locks.
This makes human thieves utterly pointless. So I’m thinking maybe allow Human Thieves and maybe Assassins to choose ONE skill to receive a +4 bonus. Not sure though.
That is one of the problems with thieves, with demi-human bonuses there is no reason to play a human thief except in vanilla B/X where it is mandatory. You could give human thieves an XP bonus of 10% or so (like all humans get in BFRPG), or bonuses tied to abilities for thief skills that the demi-humans don’t get.
Yea I’ve ALWAYS hated early edition thieves even though they are usually my favorite class to play. I think FMAG does a nice job with the thief and Delving Deeper just gives thieves a 1-4 chance permanently which is solid even though that will never improve. But I really like the saving throw idea here by Akrasia. With a +3 a level 1 thief starts at a 45% chance and that continues to improve by 5% every level. I think that’s great. Demi-humans already get some nice racial bonuses so I may just remove their thieving bonuses entirely just to even the playing field.
Now that brings me to the Assassin…Ugh. What a terrible class. I know early editions made them be two levels behind the thief. I get it. But ouch. That’s why I say give them a +1 bonus to their saving throw when using thief skills right at level 1. This way they get their skills right from the start but are lagging behind the thief. Now that being said I’ve never understood why Assassins aren’t good at hiding and moving silently. They should be just as good in my view. So I may house rule they get a +3 to hiding and moving silently but a +1 to everything else. I also like the option of letting them add their experience level to backstab damage. Not sure how balanced that is but I like it better than death attacks.
So my house rules, which is something I love about S&W, for thieves:
All thieves will use their saving throw for thief abilities. The get a +3 bonus to their roll when using these abilities.
Assassins receive a +3 bonus to Hiding and Move Silently but only a +1 to Open Locks, Delicate Tasks, Hear Noises, and Climb Walls.
Simple. What do you think?
That’s a pretty decent system, I like it.
But I have to say though that’s why BX and FMAG (with your race as class rules) are so awesome. I’ve always been a fan of race as class. It’s simpler and makes humans more useful. :)
Hey Doug, sorry for all the comments and questions…lol. You have so much awesome content on here and I’m simply trying to take it all in. :) Under the poisons the text gets cut off in the effect window for the sleep poison. What does it say the end go on to say? Thanks!
Thanks for catching that – all these years I never noticed! I uploaded a version that looks better, if you click on the image you should see it all now.
Cool man. I really like your version of the thief here. I’m trying it out in a short adventure right now. Gotta question about the Backstab ‘skill’: Does the skill attempt reflect the thief’s ability to position himself for a backstab? I’m just trying to understand the thematic aspect to rolling the skill. Normally I’m used to rolling a hide in shadows or move silently check like in BX. But I notice that the backstab description doesn’t even mention having approach unaware or by surprise. Can you elaborate for me?
Let me know how it plays! I’ve never made thieves roll move silently/hide in shadows/any skill check in order to get into position to backstab, at low levels that would make backstabs almost impossible. So I just make common-sense rulings about the thief being able to get into position unseen. Usually this means enough space around an ongoing melee that the thief can plausibly “sneak” to the rear without being seen. Generally no roll needed. In close quarters (small rooms, filled with combatants) I don’t allow it.